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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: All right, thank you. Hello?

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: And welcome to the ALAT Open House.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: talk with the ALEC. My name is Michelle F. Smyder.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: And I am the Remote Participation Manager for today's session.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: Please note that this session is being recorded and archived.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: As a reminder, participation in ICANN, including the meeting today, is governed by the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: the ICANN Community Anti-Harassment Policy.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: statements of interest. Please remember to sign in.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: Please remember to sign into Zoom, as questions will be taken via hands raised in the Zoom room only. During the session, questions or comments will only be read aloud if submitted within the Q&A pod.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: Interpretation for today's session will include English, French, and Spanish. If you would like to speak during this session, please raise your hand in Zoom, and when called upon, virtual participants will be given permission to unmute in Zoom. On-site participants will use a physical microphone to speak.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: Please state your name for the record, the language you will speak, if speaking a language other than English. And please speak at a reasonable pace.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: And with this, I will now hand the floor over to Jonathan Zook, ALAC Chair. Please begin, Jonathan.

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MTS - AV: Thanks, Michelle. Thanks, everyone, for being here. This is a relatively new addition to our meeting agendas, this open house. It's sort of our version of the public forum.

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MTS - AV: Whenever somebody wants to come talk to us for a short period of time, make a short presentation.

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MTS - AV: We bring them in as part of this session.

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MTS - AV: And, has been working well, so,

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MTS - AV: Without, any further ado, let's.

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MTS - AV: get Jan Schulte on the line here to talk about the Multi-Stakeholder Global Governance Project. Jan, are you there?

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scholteja: I hope so. Can you hear me all right?

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MTS - AV: Yeah, we can hear you.

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scholteja: Okay, as I said, I very much wish I were with you, in person. That was the intention. But, life happened, and so I'm in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and addressing you at 1 in the morning with my most alertness possible. Let me share the slides, if I can.

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scholteja: Oops,

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: Please go ahead.

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scholteja: And if… I hope you're seeing what I'm seeing.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: Yes.

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Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: Okay.

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scholteja: Great, thanks very much. Thanks very much, Eilat. Thanks very much, Jonathan, for an invitation to take you in the next step of the journey of this project that started

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scholteja: Is it going to let me move the slides? There we go. That started, one and a half years ago.

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scholteja: It's a multi-stakeholder global governance project based at Leiden University in the Netherlands.

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scholteja: I'm working together with Hortense Jomier, who you may know from some of our earlier work concerning ICANN.

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scholteja: And to further researchers.

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scholteja: And we are looking at the question of multi-stakeholder global governance, and what… under what circumstances it works well.

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scholteja: The motivation, to remind, I spoke with you a couple of meetings ago, the motivation of this project is to see that multi-stakeholder global governance is one of the main opportunities to

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scholteja: Fill the global governance gap.

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scholteja: that were… Facing in major measure in today's world.

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scholteja: Traditional multilateral global governance, intergovernmental global governance is, Desperately falling short.

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scholteja: And multi-stakeholder constructions have been growing.

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scholteja: Over the past 30 years, with many promises for problem solving in democratic, fair, peaceful, sustainable ways.

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scholteja: Question is whether that promise actually comes out in practice, and so this project is looking at how far that actually happens.

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scholteja: I'm looking especially at the ICANN angle. My colleagues are also looking at the Forest Stewardship Council in the environmental field, and the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria in the health field.

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scholteja: we've basically been Exploring whether multi-stakeholder global governance works well.

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scholteja: By looking at the capacity.

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scholteja: the effectiveness and the legitimacy of the arrangements. And what I want to do with you today is talk about some initial

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scholteja: findings in relation to the capacity angle. And then maybe in other sessions later on, over the next couple of years, I can come back about the effectiveness and legitimacy angles. But the argument is here that multi-stakeholder global governance isn't going to get off the ground.

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scholteja: If it doesn't have… The resources it needs.

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scholteja: To pursue its, goals.

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scholteja: We've tried to figure out, or to develop a framework for thinking about capacity.

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scholteja: And we've come up with 6 general types of key resources.

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scholteja: that a multi-stakeholder global governance arrangement like ICANN would need.

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scholteja: And I'll go through those six one by one, and elaborate a little bit on what our early thoughts are about how well that's going.

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scholteja: in relation to ICANN.

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scholteja: On the whole, I have to say that the impressions are positive.

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scholteja: And that'll be the running theme right the way through, though, of course, with some qualifications on the way.

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scholteja: Maybe this first idea about structural capacity may seem a little bit elusive at first, but what we're saying there is that

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scholteja: a multi-stakeholder global governance arrangement like ICANN is not going to be able to work if the contextual circumstances, the world order circumstances, aren't conducive.

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scholteja: And ICANN had the good luck, especially in its early years and its establishment.

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scholteja: Of having a world order situation that was extremely welcoming to the kind of.

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scholteja: work and multi-stakeholder type of work that ICANN wanted to do.

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scholteja: It was a period of very welcome.

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scholteja: Meaning attitudes towards market-led governance.

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scholteja: Sometimes loosely called neoliberalism.

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scholteja: And it was a time of a US hegemony in the sense of a positive leadership of the US government to promote multi-stakeholderism in general and ICANN in particular.

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scholteja: And it was a time when geopolitics was in generally calm.

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scholteja: Waters.

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scholteja: That is not the situation today, and one could perhaps wonder whether, if one tried to create ICANN in 2026 rather than in 1998, whether it would be possible.

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scholteja: But ICANN has existed.

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scholteja: And the systemic conditions haven't moved so far.

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scholteja: against… ICANN that it has major problems.

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scholteja: the internet

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scholteja: is very much steeped in a capitalist global economy that is secure and is… and continues to operate. Market-led governance is not

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scholteja: In major question.

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scholteja: US hegemony is not so essential for the continued operation of ICANN today.

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scholteja: And so far, on the whole, ICANN remains insulated from most of the geopolitical turmoil around us.

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scholteja: moments of Ukraine aside. And ICANN has appealed to human rights norms.

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scholteja: You know, over time, in ways that have increased.

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scholteja: legitimacy.

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scholteja: potentials.

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scholteja: So structural capacity is more or less okay. Legal capacity at ICANN also seems to be

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scholteja: More or less secure.

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scholteja: The construction of ICANN as a California nonprofit public benefit corporation is

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scholteja: largely accepted, and gives ICANN a firm and secure legal grounding. Again, if we compare that with a number of other multi-stakeholder global governance arrangements, ICANN has advantages in that regard.

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scholteja: And as long as the U.S. government doesn't interfere, and which might want

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scholteja: might cause some to want a backup plan to revise constructions and head offices and so on. As long as that doesn't happen, that looks pretty secure. The mandate also looks pretty clear and accepted by especially insiders.

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scholteja: Pretty much all governments.

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scholteja: Though sometimes there's a bit of confusion about where the mandate

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scholteja: boundaries should go, and as DNS abuse raises questions about content, or AI raises questions about how far ICANN should get involved there, so mandate is never totally secure and fixed, and

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scholteja: But it's in reasonably safe shape.

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scholteja: Institutional capacity here.

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scholteja: we're referring to whether the ICANN has a mature organizational architecture in place, and I think one can say, on the whole, that that's the case.

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scholteja: There are debates, of course, about

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scholteja: Whether the role of governments is entirely what one wants it to be, whether there should be, you know, reconstitute the technical

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scholteja: ACs as a single technical SO.

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scholteja: I've heard the number of

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scholteja: suggestions in interviews and the like about how things might be done rather differently, whether inclusion and diversity

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scholteja: measures are… Fully sufficient. Well, the accountability show, of course, runs and runs.

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scholteja: So, again, institutional capacity is not 100% secure and fixed.

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scholteja: But if one compares it with many other multi-stakeholder

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scholteja: Global governance arrangements, ICANN is in,

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scholteja: Quite mature and reasonable shape.

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scholteja: People capacity at ICANN is also, one could say, on the whole, in good shape, generally high quality, high competence, high dedication, high continuity in most areas of the board and the staff and the community.

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scholteja: We noticed that Some places maybe don't have as much continuity. The GAC comes up continually in this regard.

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scholteja: And then some expressions of concerns of too much continuity, in the sense of perhaps not having enough renewal and new blood, in spite of the elaborate, deliberate efforts to obtain that.

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scholteja: And too much reliance, perhaps, on relatively small circles of dedicated community members.

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scholteja: On the material capacity here, ICANN has huge advantage relative to other multi-stakeholder global governance arrangements. I think it can be underestimated in that way. ICANN has this underlying global resource that it can draw on for its operations.

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scholteja: Yeah, the 400 million domain name registrations, the billions of IP addresses.

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scholteja: And that gives such a solid, autonomous base of financial resources.

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scholteja: From the registrant fees, From the registrar and registry base fees.

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scholteja: the CCTLD contributions.

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scholteja: Although it varies from time to time and from year to year, on the whole, over the long term, that has given ICANN a material resource base that is the envy, I think, of many.

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scholteja: Finally, ideational capacity. Here we're talking about the… the… the… the…

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scholteja: Yeah, ideational mental area of resources for ICANN.

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scholteja: One thing that comes out very strongly there, and I'm sure many of you feel that too, is the strong affective ties that bind people to ICANN. Those who work with ICANN tend to have a strong identification with it, strong loyalty to it.

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scholteja: Pride about it, passion for it, a sense of mission, sense of belonging.

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scholteja: And that… gives a real backbone, ideational backbone to ICANN as a multi-stakeholder global governance arrangement.

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scholteja: There's incredible data.

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scholteja: generation and analysis. I have to say, as an academic, I look in envy at… with envy at the research capacity that ICANN has.

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scholteja: It's large training that is done.

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scholteja: Yeah, with the fellowship programs, the NextGen, the Learn Platform, the Internet Governance Academies.

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scholteja: Gives ICANN, again, a large training base that many multi-stakeholder global governance arrangements don't have.

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scholteja: There's a notable communications department.

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scholteja: Yeah, with… gives a lot of careful thought to aims and audiences, vehicles and messages. Again, something that

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scholteja: Multi-stakeholder global governance arrangements in other quarters would be jealous of.

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scholteja: And.

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scholteja: I can just… Quite well.

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scholteja: I mean, whether you want to buy into, necessarily, personally, the discourses of multi-stakeholderism or SSR.

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scholteja: That can be said, but the discursive legitimation of ICANN is a strong one. And out of all of that, as we found in earlier research, the legitimacy perceptions around ICANN are generally quite strong.

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scholteja: So overall, just on this capacity angle, if we say that multi-stakeholder global governance needs capacity, needs means, needs resources to be able to move forward, ICANN is, on the whole, doing pretty well on all of those six dimensions of capacity that

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scholteja: I covered now. There are some weak points.

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scholteja: But I can't say that we're finding fundamental deficits that would compromise the operation of the regime so far.

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scholteja: Of course, having capacity is not the same as having effectiveness.

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scholteja: So, having the capacities, you then need to take the further step of deploying those capacities in ways that are effective.

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scholteja: In terms of policy formulation, implementation, review and impact. And so that's the next step in this, in this research, to say, okay, how well does it work at ICANN in that regard?

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scholteja: It's the first time for me to give this presentation, so I'm curious what your reactions will be. Thank you.

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MTS - AV: Questions for Jan?

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MTS - AV: Sarah, go ahead.

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MTS - AV: Hi, this is Claire Craig. Thank you, Professor Yan, for this presentation. Very interesting, emerging findings, as it says. My question is, when you speak about the

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MTS - AV: ICANN, the multi-stakeholder global governance with respect to how ICANN operates

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MTS - AV: How has your research shown any, emerging findings with respect to the

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MTS - AV: multi-stakeholders of less developed nations. You spoke to the fact that there are a lot of, you know, it's… it's…

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MTS - AV: ICANN is American-based, that's where it's legally registered, and there are a lot of,

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MTS - AV: first world countries, put it that way, that operate in ICANN, but have you seen any findings that, suggest that there were any differences with stakeholders from less developed regions?

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scholteja: Sure, thanks, thanks for that question. Yes.

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scholteja: multi-stakeholder global governance, I did mention along the way that there are questions that can be raised about the adequacy of diversity and inclusion.

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scholteja: measures within the institutional capacities of ICANN and other multi-stakeholder global governance arrangements. And that diversity and inclusion can include Global South issues, of course, and geopolitical access.

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scholteja: All three of the main, large, long-term, multi-stakeholder global governance arrangements that this project looks like, looks at, the FSC, the Forest Stewardship Council, the Global Fund.

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scholteja: and ICANN are all primarily resourced from the Global North.

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scholteja: And the staff, the headquarters are there, Geneva, Bonn, Los Angeles. The majority of the staff are coming from the Global North. The majority of offices are located there.

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scholteja: So, yes, the point is certainly there. Multi-stakeholder global governance arrangements based in the Global South are few.

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scholteja: And so, yes, in terms of… and we don't see, in terms of BRICS or more South-led global governance.

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scholteja: adopting a multi-stakeholder model? No, that's very little. So, it's a point well taken, thank you.

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MTS - AV: Alfred, go ahead.

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MTS - AV: Thank you. Avri speaking. Hello, Jan. I wanted to ask you a question and see if this

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MTS - AV: has shown up in your own research. It shows up in my much less formal research and writing methods, and so I'm wondering if it's something that you encounter.

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MTS - AV: It has occurred to me over the last couple years that no decision at ICANN No decision made with…

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MTS - AV: You know, the multi-stakeholder consensus is ever completed, is ever safe.

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MTS - AV: That basically the model we've got allows for anyone who was dissatisfied with a situation that came down to wait one year, to wait two years, to wait five years, but because of the open nature and the accepting nature that we have for any of our issues.

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MTS - AV: It's totally appropriate to reintroduce it. And unless the people that…

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MTS - AV: are instrumental to bringing about a consensus decision, stand guard over it so that they're ready to basically react anytime there's

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MTS - AV: you know, some misinformation, some pressure, some whatever, to do something about it, they will eventually lose a certain amount of what was decided.

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MTS - AV: Now, I have yet to confirm whether this occurs as often as anecdotally I think it does, but I'm wondering if you see any of that kind of aspect of if you don't hold on to the things you fought for carefully, you will lose them in our model.

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MTS - AV: Thanks.

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scholteja: Thank you, Avri.

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scholteja: As always, a nice provocation. As you were talking, I was thinking of Andy Burnham reopening the Brexit question.

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scholteja: So, I mean, I think to some extent, this is… this is politics, no?

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scholteja: and healthy politics to some extent. It can be very frustrating for those who have fought hard for certain gains, that they find that they have to keep fighting for them. But, you know, you can also say, well, the LGBTQ plus issue was reopened in Hungary, and thank goodness for that.

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scholteja: So, there are times when this reopening can be frustrating, and sometimes when it can be actually politically productive. So I wouldn't be too… personally, I wouldn't be too worried about it, and in a way.

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scholteja: a lack of contestation would worry me at some point, but I understand your frustration in terms of wanting to guard certain gains that are hot-fought.

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MTS - AV: Dude.

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MTS - AV: Thank you very much, Sunadi Oguntuyi for the record.

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MTS - AV: I just wanted to check recently for the upcoming IGF in Kenya.

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MTS - AV: I and my friends, we had tried to propose a session, and the title is, Who Owes Multi-Stakeholders Accountable? How do we even measure accountability amongst a multi-stakeholder system? And from the research you said you're doing, I just had this thought come to my mind.

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MTS - AV: How do we identify when interest changes?

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MTS - AV: For instance, I sit today as an at-large member, end-user concern. Tomorrow, I go maybe private or government. Is there any part of your research that has also been able to dissect this so that

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MTS - AV: at the end of the day, just like what Avri mentioned, we can always come back to reopen cases. And I know one of the classes I've had was, a time ago, on multi-stakeholder is that

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MTS - AV: every process is slow because we want some form of inclusivity, and to bring everybody's voice to the table. I just wanted to know if you had any research that's touched on when interest changes, and how do we even hold a multi-stakeholder system accountable? Thank you.

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scholteja: No, thanks for that very, very important question, and

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scholteja: question that seems to be inherent in multi-stakeholder global governance. My line when I mentioned the issue, I said, you know, yeah, the accountability issue runs and runs.

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scholteja: I first came to ICANN in 2014 as an accountability advisor in the IANA transition.

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scholteja: And we spent, those of you who remember from that time, the IANA stewardship transition, the technicalities were arranged within a few weeks, even. The accountability show was more than 2 years before we got to some issues, which then have continually been reopened, and even now, more recently with the

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scholteja: accountability and transparency review and how that should be handled and so on.

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scholteja: So, accountability is an issue. I don't think… It's going to go away

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scholteja: for the foreseeable future, because multi-stakeholder global governance is a new form of governing, relatively, certainly on a global scale.

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scholteja: And the traditional accountability mechanisms that we use in the state system don't apply here.

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scholteja: But we're not really fully sure what does.

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scholteja: And so we go in all kinds of different directions with it, and it will continue to be something that is, that is discussed and evolved and debated.

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scholteja: You mentioned accountability, you know, by whom to whom, as your own interest moves, as you move from one SOAC to another in your own work.

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scholteja: That, again, is one of the great puzzles. In the multi-stakeholder arrangement in general. There are multiple stakeholders, and what kind of accountability is suitable for each one of them in relation to each kind of issue?

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MTS - AV: Thanks a lot. I think we're gonna close the queue after this. Who's next?

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MTS - AV: All right. Jan, thank you so much for joining us.

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MTS - AV: And, we always enjoy hearing about your research, and I'm very interested to see the.

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MTS - AV: techniques you'll use to measure effectiveness, in your, in your next phase. That'll be very interesting.

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MTS - AV: report to receive as well. Thanks a lot for joining us.

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scholteja: Yes, Jonathan, I'll… thank you for having me, and again, apologies that I'm not there in person.

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MTS - AV: You're missed.

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scholteja: I miss you. Okay, thank you.

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MTS - AV: Next we have Tom Barrett here from the nominating committee.

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MTS - AV: Thanks, Jonathan. Hi, everyone. I'm Tom Barrett. I'm the, associate chair of the NOMCOM.

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MTS - AV: We don't have an outreach subcommittee, actually, on the NOMCOM today.

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MTS - AV: The new leadership is Charles Mock, who's the chair, and Ron DeSilva, who's the chair-elect.

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MTS - AV: And so, we want to… we're here to talk about what the NOMCOM is focusing on this year.

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MTS - AV: We have 9 open positions, for the NOMCOM. We have 3 for the board.

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MTS - AV: As you can see here on the screen, we have one for the CCNSO, two for the GNSO, and then three for ALAC. So that's Africa.

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MTS - AV: Asia, Australia, and Latin America.

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MTS - AV: I met earlier, we, Jonathan came, along with other leadership and met with the delegates today and described, gave us input in terms of guidance, for the ALAC openings, that the NOMCOM basically is recruiting for.

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MTS - AV: And I want to talk a little bit about the kind of outreach we want to do.

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MTS - AV: If you remember last year, when I was chair, we actually had a record number of applications to the NOMCOM.

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MTS - AV: And this year, I think we'll have another record number of applications because of some improvements we've made in how we do outreach.

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MTS - AV: However, we do tend to fall short with ALAC in particular.

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MTS - AV: So, for example, our target goal

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MTS - AV: is to get at least 16 applications per position. So we want 16 from Africa, 16 from Asia, 16 from Latin America.

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MTS - AV: And, you know, that was obviously, that was not quite met when we were last recruited for those positions two years ago.

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MTS - AV: And, certainly wasn't met, this past year for Europe and North America either.

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MTS - AV: And so, we are trying some different things, but we also want your help in identifying how we can find the type of, candidates you're looking for.

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MTS - AV: And so I'm gonna leave these flyers with you, but also, invite you to… to let us know if you think we should try something different. I'll give you an idea of two of the things that we are doing.

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MTS - AV: We do paid media campaigns. In the past, this is run by ICANN comms, and they used to run a single paid media campaign that said, apply for ICANN leadership.

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MTS - AV: The change we made was that it's no longer a single campaign, but it's a campaign per position.

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MTS - AV: So, in this case, we have 6 different campaigns. We have one for the board, one for GNSO, one for CCNSO.

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MTS - AV: And 3 for each of the ALAC regions.

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MTS - AV: So we have very targeted paid media campaigns, for each of the ALAC regions, and that we hope will… we can allow us to fine-tune our reach… outreach for paid media. The platforms are LinkedIn, X, and Facebook.

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MTS - AV: But we also do outreach to, internet governance organizations, where the type of candidates might participate in.

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MTS - AV: And so we've identified 75 of these worldwide, obviously specific to different regions and different types of the positions that we're recruiting for.

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MTS - AV: But would love to, get, input from anyone. If you happen to know folks at some of these organizations, that, could promote the ALAC openings to their membership, that would be much appreciated.

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MTS - AV: So that's… that's all I have to say. I'll leave behind some flyers here with Jonathan.

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MTS - AV: If you, if you can pass these out. Again, you can.

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MTS - AV: reach out to us if you have some suggestions on outreach. We talked about that a little earlier today. And, I'll take any questions you might have.

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MTS - AV: Hi, Tom. Claire Craig, for the record. I heard your question about suggestions for outreach.

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MTS - AV: Do you current… you spoke about the social media platforms, but do you use any of the GSE, in the areas to help

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MTS - AV: promote these openings. So, I just came from a session with ICANN COMS.

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MTS - AV: And, they are recommending that we engage with GSE.

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MTS - AV: It is something that, the NomCom has never done before.

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MTS - AV: So, but it is at their recommendation that we… GSE is a global stakeholder engagement group.

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MTS - AV: That goes to…

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MTS - AV: various face-to-face meetings across regions. Keep in mind, our application window, and it was accelerated last year, and we're keeping the same window this year, that will open December 18th, and will close around February 16th.

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MTS - AV: So, GSE is interesting and useful to the extent that there are events happening within those 60 days.

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MTS - AV: Right? But it… obviously, that doesn't hit everyone, because of… it depends on whether or not there's a meeting taking place. So, we tend to think that perhaps electronic outreach to organizations that perhaps GSE's not going to hit, or there's, you know, they don't have any meetings scheduled, we still want them to

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MTS - AV: Do something on their website, or push something out in the newsletter.

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MTS - AV: Cheryl, go ahead.

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MTS - AV: Thanks very much. Cheryl Angden-Orr for the record. I'm pretty sure the mic will be able to pick it up. Hi, Tom.

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MTS - AV: Can I ask a question specific to the Asia-Pacific space? Gse, great, fantastic, glad you're going there. But I would strongly recommend what we have called the APAC space.

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MTS - AV: which is a more conglomeration of businesses throughout Asia Pacific, some GSE contacts, a lot of that large. It's a real hodgepodge, but I think for the type of talent

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MTS - AV: that you might want to be looking at in this next round, that would be one of the good places.

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MTS - AV: Specifically, if when you do a pitch there and we meet as an APAC space every meeting, every ICANN meeting, but also intersessionally, so you could do an intersessional pitch between now and the deadline.

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MTS - AV: I think the capability of getting people who are experienced enough

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MTS - AV: In good governance, but still keen enough to be at the policy end of the… and the real contributory drafting stuff.

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MTS - AV: I think you might find some in that space. So, APAC space.

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MTS - AV: Strongly recommend. Thank you, Cheryl. Great suggestion.

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MTS - AV: 3.

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MTS - AV: Oh, Judith, sorry, go ahead.

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MTS - AV: Yeah.

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MTS - AV: So, Chair Kelsey, along that line, when Shah was mentioning apex space, I'm thinking also, besides the LAC space, there's also the SID space.

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MTS - AV: the small and you know, island nations, because you could then, because if you have in all these, the areas that we're having here.

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MTS - AV: You reach the, there are SIDS people in Africa, there are SIDS people in Latin America and the Caribbean for that, and SIDS in the small island nations.

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MTS - AV: And that is also that will be at the apex basis. But there is another group that you could then also hit when you're doing the comms campaign. And I think that would be a very good.

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MTS - AV: area also to meet with. It's run by Nigel Casimir.

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MTS - AV: And Tracy Hackshaw. Alright, thanks, Judith.

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MTS - AV: All right, Bill Juris.

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Bill Jouris: Yeah, this is Bill Juris for the record. When you're doing your outreach, how do you deal with the fairly obvious perception that unless you're a lawyer or an academic, applying is a waste of time?

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Bill Jouris: That may not be how you see it, but if you look at the board.

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Bill Jouris: lawyers, academics, a few people who've been around the internet for 2 or 3 decades. But that's all I see, and

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Bill Jouris: How do you address that kind of issue when you're doing your outreach? Thank you.

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MTS - AV: Thanks, Bill. That's a great question, and I wasn't aware of… that was a common profile. But I can tell you that our starting point is the job description that you folks have provided us.

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MTS - AV: And that, that, not only informs the type of outreach we do.

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MTS - AV: But also informs how we design the application process.

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MTS - AV: for the ALAC positions. It informs how we do the assessment.

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MTS - AV: for the ALAC positions and the eventual selection.

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MTS - AV: And so.

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MTS - AV: If in fact, you know, so for example, if you ever read what the board guidance says to the NOMCOM, they will oftentimes specify in a particular year, hey, this year we have plenty of legal experience, but we're looking for audit or executive management.

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MTS - AV: And so, certainly, it's, you know, if ALAC feels like they want to attract

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MTS - AV: some other profile that certainly could be added to your job description that you provide to the NOPCOP.

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MTS - AV: Hey, Laura?

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MTS - AV: Thank you, Jonathan. And this is Laura for the records.

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MTS - AV: I think it depends if you're trying to do outreach, like inside our community or outside. I think we should also go outside to have a more range of people. And I think maybe a good idea would be to try, I don't know if it's possible or not to do outreach in other spaces, like for example, IGF meetings or Plenipot or local or regional.

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MTS - AV: events, that, that would, give us a broader, a broader, more… to get room, yes, to more people, and not only inside, the ICANN community.

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MTS - AV: Thank you.

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MTS - AV: Thanks, Laura, and I… and that's a great point. So, again, in the past, we only thought about

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MTS - AV: The meetings that were happening during this 60-day window, when the application window was open.

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MTS - AV: And as you can imagine, that… and we also asked delegates who's attending what meetings. So that hit a very few meetings, A, because it was limited by what delegates saw, or what we're going to. It was limited by what meetings were scheduled during those 60 days.

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MTS - AV: And so we've tried to expand the universe by saying, let's approach the organizations directly. We don't really care if they have something scheduled, but they're still functioning. They're still putting out newsletters and blog posts.

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MTS - AV: And so we can expand the universe of potential organizations, to promote the NomCom.

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MTS - AV: you know, because they're… regardless of when they're… what their meeting schedule is. So that's… that's basically our strategy.

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MTS - AV: I don't see any more hands up.

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MTS - AV: Thanks, Tom. I, I wonder about just the messaging, too.

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MTS - AV: Because I'm reading the thing you handed me here, and it's super boring.

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MTS - AV: from the standpoint of ALAC, and I…

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MTS - AV: I don't know if we've ever done a survey of why people have shown interests or something like that, and if we could play a role in helping

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MTS - AV: with messaging around participating in it. I mean, it's all accurate and important.

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MTS - AV: And our voice is very important as a counterbalance to the The constituencies you mentioned, but It doesn't,

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MTS - AV: It's not inspiring, I guess, as far as the way it's currently written, so…

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MTS - AV: Maybe we can take on ourselves, thinking a little bit about,

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MTS - AV: Why we're here, why we decided this was interesting, what keeps us here, and trying to make that part of

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MTS - AV: Some of the outreach we do ourselves, and then maybe can help

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MTS - AV: with some of the outreach that you do, but… So, no, actually, I'll, I'll take that as a promise that, so our social media campaigns will kick off December 18th, run for 60 days, and so we'll, we'll make sure we get back to what those social media posts will look like.

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MTS - AV: And, you can… you can tell us how to make it exciting.

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MTS - AV: All right.

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MTS - AV: We'll put some thought into that. All right, cool. Thank you, Tom, very much. Thank you, everybody.

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MTS - AV: You're next. All right.

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MTS - AV: So, let's learn about the ICANN Academy and Leadership Program.

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MTS - AV: Thank you, Jonathan. Hi, everyone. Eric Gusrama here, Vice President for Engagement Programs at ICANN.

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MTS - AV: And one of the programs that I look after is the leadership program. I am looking around the room, and I can count…

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MTS - AV: at least a dozen of you who have actually participated in the program, so I'm sure it would be useful to hear some of your, thoughts and.

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MTS - AV: to have a conversation about, you know, how we could potentially make the program even better. If we can go to the first slide, please. And I've only got a couple of slides just for reference, and hopefully we can have a little bit of time for a discussion, if needed.

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MTS - AV: So this is… for those of you who've been around for as long as I have, this was a pilot that started back in 2013 in Buenos Aires, actually, and the idea was to bring together the leaders around the community

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MTS - AV: and have a platform where they could share best practices and share experiences and really learn from one another. That was the initial intent. It has evolved over time, of course, a little bit on the skill building side of things.

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MTS - AV: But the premise is still the same. How can we learn from one another? How can we build bridges between SOs and ACs? And one of the observations, a personal observation I would like to make is.

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MTS - AV: How interesting it is to see the various SONAC leaders.

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MTS - AV: actually understand what the other is doing. And initially, when we 1st started doing this segment of the program.

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MTS - AV: you know, the initial reaction was, but of course they know what the other is doing. You come to find out, actually, that is not necessarily the case. So, you know, building those bridges, building that common understanding, and really building that network that then enables you as leaders

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MTS - AV: To have those conversations in a much safer space, and to really just share, experiences.

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MTS - AV: So, that was initial intent. Buenos Aires was the first iteration of this, and as I said, the idea was to continue to evolve it, and we've done so over the years.

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MTS - AV: At large, specifically, has had 5 slots, and those were the RALOs. Starting with the next iteration of the program, that has increased to 6, so ALAC will now also have one representative. And that is, of course, to make sure that the group itself is as representative as it possibly can be.

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MTS - AV: The… if we can go to the next slide, please. So, the next and 10th iteration of this program will take place in Lisbon. It takes place once a year, in the March timeframe.

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MTS - AV: And, we have up to 31 participants. That includes all the SLs and ACs, SGs and Cs, including the board as well. And to date, we've had over 200 individuals, leaders, that have participated in the program. So that's a big number, if you will.

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MTS - AV: And there has been a lot of exchanges that have taken place there, and that platform largely has been received as a positive one.

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MTS - AV: This is open, of course, to both current and future leaders in the community.

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MTS - AV: And as I mentioned earlier, one of the biggest takeaways is really the network that is built, the trust building that happens in those exercises that are put together, as well as the skill building part of it. In some cases, it's new skills, in some cases, it's just refreshing existing skills.

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MTS - AV: For the Lisbon meeting, the nominations are due at the end of November, and the nominations in this case are at large through… will come through the ALAC leadership. And just on the logistics side of things, the accommodations, and there's a little stipend that is part of the program.

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MTS - AV: That's all I wanted to share as far as a snapshot of the program. Again, as I said, I see so many of you have participated in this program who are in the room today, so if anybody would like to share any of their experiences, or if anyone has any questions, I'm happy to answer those. Thank you.

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MTS - AV: Hannah, go ahead.

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MTS - AV: Thank you. Thank you so much. I have a question regarding, which platforms do you use, such as ICANN Learn courses with soft… regarding those soft skills, and…

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MTS - AV: That's a really good question, and thank you for the question. So

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MTS - AV: As far as the onboarding aspect of it, and for those who are online, I'm using air quotes, ICANNLearn is used as the platform, and there's certain prerequisite courses that everybody has to take.

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MTS - AV: And then, as far as the skill building, we have a facilitator, an external facilitator that essentially leads most of the the 2 day facilitation and the discussion groups.

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MTS - AV: And then, of course, we benefit a great deal from the experience of those who participate in the program, because that's really where the knowledge is coming from. But the skill-building part of it and some of the exercises are facilitated through and handled and led by an external third party.

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MTS - AV: Claire Craig. So I've been asked to share my perspective since I was part of this, one of the persons who would have attended the leadership program. And I just want to start by saying thanks to ICANN Org for listening to us.

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MTS - AV: Because, as Erga said, initially, the participants from the At-Large was just the RELOs, so there was no slot for an ALAC person to attend.

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MTS - AV: So the only way AAALAC people who may not have been part of AVRELO could attend was if the

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MTS - AV: Raylo chose not to send somebody then. That's how somebody from ALAC attended these. But now we have our own slot.

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MTS - AV: So that is very valuable, and we are thankful for that.

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MTS - AV: What I wanted to say was that, from my experience.

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MTS - AV: It was good to see.

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MTS - AV: ALAC people as well, as part of the facilitating group, because I think in my group, Amrita was one of the.

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MTS - AV: leads the mentors or the support persons who helped us in the group.

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MTS - AV: But the other thing that was really valuable was meeting other members of the SOACs.

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MTS - AV: And the relationships that were built.

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MTS - AV: by attending that. So, I think the, RELOS and the ALAC needs to look very carefully at their selections for

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MTS - AV: this, and as I just said, it ends in November, so we need to define, you know, sit together and select persons who we know can benefit from programs such as this.

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MTS - AV: And, the other thing that was valuable.

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MTS - AV: For me, was the small group settings.

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MTS - AV: Where persons were able to.

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MTS - AV: deal with specific issues that they may have been having as part of their leadership role, or even, you know, relationships with different… how to manage different relationships, because once you're…

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MTS - AV: as we had heard from the Ombuds, once you're working with people, there are things that you have to navigate, and once you… whether you're in leadership or you're part of a small group.

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MTS - AV: These are things that are critical for,

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MTS - AV: learning and developing and engaging properly. So, the leadership program is, I think it's really a good program, and we need to embrace it and, ensure that we get the best out of it for our members. That's…

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MTS - AV: I'm Rita.

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MTS - AV: Thank you, Amrita, for the record, and yes, I have been part of this program first in Cancun, and then have been supporting in the next two. It is a very good program, I would say, because it not only helps you to build networks with other leaders in the different SOACs, because

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MTS - AV: You are not there for a meeting, but you're working together for certain things. You realize that they also have common issues.

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MTS - AV: Whereas you may have some specific issues and how to resolve them. As in, it gives you techniques. The facilitator is actually very good, who takes you through the program, so it's… I would say it's a highly recommended

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MTS - AV: program, and like Claire said, it is important that the RELOs and even ELEC select the right candidates to go for the training. It's a very valuable one, I would say.

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MTS - AV: Thank you, Amrita, and thank you, Jonathan, and thank you for the presentation. I would like to start with a testimonial. So I also joined last year, did this program really, really good. And it's not only at large, it's really the whole ICANN, and that gives another perspective.

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MTS - AV: So you're looking for candidates, and for sure, we take that for you, Halo.

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MTS - AV: We will need maybe to synchro also with ELAC to align on the candidates.

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MTS - AV: But my question is also about facilitators. So there were facilitators. Are you recruiting also facilitators? How can we candidate? Okay, that's my question. Thank you.

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MTS - AV: Yeah, that's a great question, and I apologize, I forgot to mention the facilitators, because they play a huge role in this, and there's usually four to five facilitators, depending on the size of the group, and that's something that the community members who are in charge of the program, and in this case, that happens to be someone from AdLarge.

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MTS - AV: And in consultation with the third party, they decide on who the individuals are who are going to serve in that capacity for Lisbon in this case. And I think we had asked for volunteers in the last iteration of the program. So we got a few hands up as well. So that's part of the process.

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MTS - AV: Excellent. Thank you.

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MTS - AV: Avery.

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MTS - AV: Avri speaking, thank you, and I'm afraid I'm being contrary again today.

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MTS - AV: I think I participated in some of those. I don't remember when. It was long ago, and perhaps it was before you started enumerating them.

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MTS - AV: And one of the things that I have seen, and I don't even know if these two

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MTS - AV: Things are connected.

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MTS - AV: And I'm looking to understand if they are connected. One of the things that I have seen evolve over the last couple of years is sort of a classful system.

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MTS - AV: among volunteers of the leadership cadre.

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MTS - AV: And then the rest of the people. Now, I know I get to belong to the leadership cadre as much as I want. And so I'm speaking against my own class. But the point is.

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MTS - AV: As time has gone on, I've seen a real division. I've seen us reaching out, not so much for the bottom-up decisions, but

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MTS - AV: Well, let's just ask the leaders. They were elected. They've been trained. They can make a quick decision without all that bottom up fussing that we do.

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MTS - AV: And I know I'm putting it in more presumptive sense than anybody rational has uttered to themselves, but just as an example. But I really do see that kind of bifurcation.

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MTS - AV: in the volunteer crew between those that have had the special bonding, you know, because as was being said, there is a bonding that happens between the leaders that participate. And that bonding, that experience, that being pointed out to

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MTS - AV: actually serves to separate them from the rest of the stakeholders in some sort of tangible way. Again, I'm speaking anecdotally, I'm hand waving a lot.

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MTS - AV: But I'm seeing…

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MTS - AV: A trend that has bothered me lately — I talk about there being a Privy Council, which is composed of volunteers that are somehow more important than the other volunteers because of their leadership training, their bonding.

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MTS - AV: et cetera. Has anybody taken a look and seen, is that really a beneficial effect?

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MTS - AV: For the multi-stakeholder model? Or does it, in some sense.

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MTS - AV: interfere with the ability of people that haven't been selected, because again, that becomes a self-selecting class. In other words, leaders pick leaders to take the course, and if you're the leader that gets picked, then, you know, you're a more favored leader.

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MTS - AV: And so it's got a little bit…

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MTS - AV: Anecdotally hand-waving of that self-selecting bias.

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MTS - AV: of a separate class. And that I'm just wondering, has anybody spent any time sort of delving down this and sort of say, are we actually injuring?

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MTS - AV: Our ambition of bottom-up, because we've created this intermediate level that doesn't need the bottom.

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MTS - AV: Thanks.

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MTS - AV: Thanks, Avri. As always, your questions make me think the light bulbs go off.

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MTS - AV: No, to answer the direct question, we have not actually conducted an analysis to see what the impacts, whether… well, if there are negative impacts resulting from this in the way in which you've outlined it. In fact, one of the purposes

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MTS - AV: stated purposes of the program is to actually do just that that you've identified as a potential issue, which is, we've got this cadre of leaders in the ICANN community. They need the tools in order to do their job as effectively as they possibly can, and as a part of that, this program was launched.

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MTS - AV: and the trust building and building that network is a part of it. Now, whether or not that has a negative effect on the bottom up multi-stakeholder model.

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MTS - AV: So I think that's a good question, but it's not something that we've actually evaluated or assessed. And I would be happy to talk to you offline to see if, you know, how we could potentially go about that. But that's an excellent question. And again, I never thought about it.

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MTS - AV: I almost suggest we should stop having leaders. Cheryl is next, and no more hands, we're toward the end here. Thanks, Jonathan. Cheryl Angden-Orr for the transcript record. Ergus, I'm gonna.

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MTS - AV: Follow up on avri here and say, I think after 10 years and a cadre of 200, you've probably got the leaders.

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MTS - AV: Who are in positions and coming into positions pretty well sorted. What we haven't got is the emerging talent looked after yet. And I think not aspiring, but clearly emerging leadership talent would also benefit greatly

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MTS - AV: by this type of training, and I would posit that this, excellent program shouldn't necessarily be cloned into a second layer, but could be, you know, put to bed for 3 or 5 years, and have 3 or 5 years of the emerging talent.

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MTS - AV: equally well serviced. Thank you.

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MTS - AV: This is Barry Lieba. I'm on SSAC, and I've done the program, and I want to talk to both what Avri said and what Cheryl said.

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MTS - AV: Doing Cheryl first.

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MTS - AV: Yes, I agree with you, and SSAC has made a point of looking at our newest members for who we should put up for this and send to the leadership training.

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MTS - AV: And yeah, it's worked very well for us. We've gotten

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MTS - AV: we've gotten a lot out of the newer members who have gone through the program. To go with what Avri was talking about.

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MTS - AV: What we have to do here as leaders is not tell everybody what to do, it's to help steer toward consensus.

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MTS - AV: And it's very easy to have discussions that circle the drain and never get anywhere. And one of the things that this program teaches us is how to lead toward consensus. And I think that's… as leaders, we're not…

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MTS - AV: controlling things. We're guiding things to

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MTS - AV: Where we can all find something we can all live with, or something that even better we can all agree to, so…

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MTS - AV: Okay, Judith.

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MTS - AV: Hi. Yes.

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MTS - AV: I want to also second that they have… I know we're running out of time, but…

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MTS - AV: So many, if you were in the… I was in one of the early leadership training courses.

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MTS - AV: But a… It did have all those great.

403
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MTS - AV: boarding and get to know a lot of the SOs and ACs and some board members, but it missed out on a lot of the later components that are essential to that.

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MTS - AV: And so, I'm thinking…

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MTS - AV: that it would also be important for people who were in the early sessions to come later, or also thinking of, I went once to the

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MTS - AV: intercultural, which is…

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MTS - AV: seminars of talking about culture like that, so maybe something more on those type of things for an additional thing, instead of just the only the…

408
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MTS - AV: the onboard, the leadership ones. Thinking some other ones that could have some of the earlier components that were not put in the… that are in these later sessions, but not in the earlier ones.

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MTS - AV: Thanks.

410
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MTS - AV: Just very briefly, I know we're out of time, but intercultural… there is an intercultural session that takes place at this… at the new iteration of this program, so that's, again, it the point that you make.

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MTS - AV: But there's, of course, always room for improvement, so I'm happy, again, to touch base with you offline and take any recommendations back.

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MTS - AV: Thank you for giving me time, Jonathan. I I just wanted while avri raises a very important point. I think the training actually doesn't

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MTS - AV: emphasize on making divisions. Rather, it says that how you can work with different, diverse people in your own SOs or ACs. So, I think it would be an individual basis how they actually take the training and go. I would be slightly contrary to you, Avri, in this, because I think

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MTS - AV: Seen the program for 3 times, I don't think that's what it trains you to do.

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MTS - AV: Oh, I… yes, Claire wants me to mention it's just in English.

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MTS - AV: So it's not, the program isn't multilingual, at least at this point, yeah, yeah.

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MTS - AV: Okay, well, thank you very much for coming and joining us. We have run out of time. This is a deeper conversation to have, I think.

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MTS - AV: People may have missed Avri's point a little bit, but.

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MTS - AV: Perhaps we can continue it ourselves.

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MTS - AV: All right, thank you so much for coming, appreciate it.

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MTS - AV: And the next session is at, 4.30, which is, with the Fellows and NextGen.